The point I’m trying to make here is that since people claim that God does not have a beginning and that it is at eternity, then that must imply that God exists beyond space and time. If so, then it must be able to KNOW everything that can happen within space and time. To us, using that logic, that God was always, is always and will always be there for eternity because it is not situated within time, it is beyond it. However, it must then be able to see the past, present and future simultaneously in a way that is incomprehensible to us, and because of that, it wouldn’t need to interfere, it wouldn’t need to create a universe, it wouldn’t perceive time linearly like us.
Given eternity, no matter how remotely unlikely it may seem, an infinite number of quantum fluctuations will generate an infinite number of universes and every possible permutation of events would play out within eternity. There is no first universe because there is no such thing as a past present and future, only an infinitely long timeline in both directions, if you may. If there is an infinite amount of time, and God sees it all at once non-linearly, then it wouldn’t create a universe since it’d know everything already. In fact, the very idea of creating Adam and Eve would be impractical since the perfect unsinning beings the Christian God wanted to create will occur an infinite number of times within that timeline along with infinite other possibilities that all occur and repeat an infinite amount of time within eternity. There is no such thing as FOREKNOWING anything because any past, present or future would be irrelevant to that God sitting outside of space and time; THERE IS NO PRESENT, IT JUST IS.
It’d know everything in a way that is incomprehensible to us because it’d exist outside of the regular perception of time that we are used to. SUCH a truly boundless being, untouched by space or time, would have no emotions, it’d have no desires, it wouldn’t act with human emotions, it wouldn’t create the universe, it wouldn’t interfere, it wouldn’t need to do anything because to it, all of eternity would simply just BE. The Christian God is, however, limited, because it is pretty much a human just with a lot of power but not infinitely so. If it were truly boundless, it’d simply realise that interfering with space and time and just creating the universe, Adam and Eve and all of that fairy tale BS would be impractical because it’d just KNOW everything thus there’d be no point to creating it. But people claim that the Christian God created the universe and everything but it cannot foreknow anything beyond the future. That just means that in actuality, the Christian God is still within the confines of space and time and that even Yahweh perceives time linearly like us. The Christian God’s (I’ll just refer to it as CG) behaviour contradicts the very notion of what a boundless God would do. If CG really had no beginning, then CG wouldn’t be bound by space or time and henceforth, CG would just know everything in a way that is incomprehensible to us. The Christian God is just a spoilt brat who has been given a lot of power and especially one that still acts within the confines of linear time.
God is a powerful being who has happiness and anger and God laughs and has a sense of humour iswell he does have physical attributes but not like us . Hes not an invisible entity but a powerful intelligent being who created us
God must have created us in a lab up in space ( heavens ) and cloned women from our rib hence why the lower ribs are the only bone in the body that regenerate back when removed . Then brought us down in an aircraft (ufo)
God is a master of science
A few thoughts. Rather than use the term “God”, I prefer Creator because that may translate better to faith traditions beyond Judaism-Christianity-Islam.
The term Creator implies the possessor of all known titles, attributes and perfections. one of that titles would be the job description “Creator” so creation is a necessary contingent attribute of a Creator, but it need not always have the same shape and form as observe it today. There can be, as the OP and others suggests, at least two type of time. One is the sequential cause-and-effect-based, physical space-time like in the Genesis phrase “In the beginning”. The other time is the one in which the Creator exists, which is non-linear and appropriate to an environment which is not physical and maybe is what some people experience as “spiritual” time the way certain events appear to happen in a dream.
As to whether or not a Creator is “inside” or “outside” the physical realm of space-time, or even various spiritual levels of Heaven (or hell), this almost doesn’t make sense.
In the famous book “Flatland”, the mysterious visitor from the third dimension is able to see everything happening in Flatland, even the insides of people’s bodies, but he is not constrained by the rules of Flatland.
To me this implies that a Creator is absolutely beyond our recognition or comprehension, and yet could be perceived in a variety of ways. The most important one, which people always seem to demand, is that a Creator make His intentions known and we, as humans, perhaps unconsciously filter these insights into buckets of emotion or human frailties like, “God was angry”, or “God was very pleased by XYZ”. Again a Creator is, by definition All-Sufficing, so any drama, or trauma or humanlike-storyline is probably just there and packaged for our convenience and discussion.
People would want God, for example, to appear like some very-human-like god (little “g’) and do miracles to show He has power. But we could argue from religious tradition that physical miracles actually undermine belief in a Creator, because those who didn’t witnessed the event are asked to “suspend disbelief”, while those who do see the event cannot agree on what they saw or just assume it was just a magic trick.
It reminds me, for example, of how diplomats and ambassadors might send out a communique to the public but avoid all the nitty gritty details of an involved negotiation. There is the official message, there is the reality behind the message (highly redacted), and there is a very definite purpose or “spin” in how the message is being crafted to encourage some response by the public.
Maybe a lot of scripture especially OT) is just highly allegorical and we just don’t realize or appreciate it for that purpose.
>If God does not have a beginning, then it must exist outside of space and time completely
I agree
>The point I’m trying to make here is that since people claim that God does not have a beginning and that it is at eternity, then that must imply that God exists beyond space and time. If so, then it must be able to KNOW everything that can happen within space and time. To us, using that logic, that God was always, is always and will always be there for eternity because it is not situated within time, it is beyond it. However, it must then be able to see the past, present and future simultaneously in a way that is incomprehensible to us, and because of that, it wouldn’t need to interfere, it wouldn’t need to create a universe, it wouldn’t perceive time linearly like us.
Agreed
>Given eternity, no matter how remotely unlikely it may seem, an infinite number of quantum fluctuations will generate an infinite number of universes and every possible permutation of events would play out within eternity.
Where would these quantum fluctuations occur? Would there not have to be a universe in which time and space exist in order for quantum fluctuations to occur? Considering there would have to be a space for these “infinite universes” that you describe to occupy, unless quantum fluctuations can occur outside the universe? If so, how would we know that?
>There is no first universe because there is no such thing as a past present and future, only an infinitely long timeline in both directions, if you may.
Again what space would these occupy if the current perspective this is written in is from outside the universe?
>If there is an infinite amount of time, and God sees it all at once non-linearly, then it wouldn’t create a universe since it’d know everything already.
How could anyone know this? You claim to know the mind and intentions of God?
>In fact, the very idea of creating Adam and Eve would be impractical since the perfect unsinning beings the Christian God wanted to create will occur an infinite number of times within that timeline along with infinite other possibilities that all occur and repeat an infinite amount of time within eternity.
God did not want to create unsinning beings, if thats what He wanted He could have very well done so. Although they would have been beings without a choice, but God wanted them to be able to freely choose Him. Not sure where you’re getting this from?
>There is no such thing as FOREKNOWING anything because any past, present or future would be irrelevant to that God sitting outside of space and time; THERE IS NO PRESENT, IT JUST IS.
I agree from God’s perspective “IT JUST IS” as you describe it, but from a humans perspective God has foreknowledge because we live time out linearly.
>It’d know everything in a way that is incomprehensible to us because it’d exist outside of the regular perception of time that we are used to.
Agreed
>SUCH a truly boundless being, untouched by space or time, would have no emotions, it’d have no desires, it wouldn’t act with human emotions, it wouldn’t create the universe, it wouldn’t interfere, it wouldn’t need to do anything because to it, all of eternity would simply just BE.
How could you possibly know what God would do? On what basis are you making these assertions? I understand from the perspective of this being all of eternity would just “be”, but how do you then come to the conclusion that you know exactly what they would do, feel, and desire?
>The Christian God is, however, limited, because it is pretty much a human just with a lot of power but not infinitely so.
Do you have examples of this?
>If it were truly boundless, it’d simply realise that interfering with space and time and just creating the universe, Adam and Eve and all of that fairy tale BS would be impractical because it’d just KNOW everything thus there’d be no point to creating it.
You acknowledge that such a being would know everything, which is well beyond what we’ll ever know, but then turn around and assert there would be no point. I’ll refer back to my previous question, how could you possibly know that? You presuppose that God created the universe with an intention then sat back to see how it’d go, which is not the case at all for the exact reasons that you state in the post. He knew anyway and thus wasn’t surprised with the way things have gone.
>But people claim that the Christian God created the universe and everything but it cannot foreknow anything beyond the future.
I’m not sure who you’ve been speaking to but I don’t know any Christian who would agree with this statement. Also, what would be beyond the future? As everything that is in the future would be just that, in the future.
>That just means that in actuality, the Christian God is still within the confines of space and time and that even Yahweh perceives time linearly like us.
Again, where are you getting this premise from? Where is any indication that Yahweh perceives time linearly?
>The Christian God’s (I’ll just refer to it as CG) behaviour contradicts the very notion of what a boundless God would do. If CG really had no beginning, then CG wouldn’t be bound by space or time and henceforth, CG would just know everything in a way that is incomprehensible to us.
I agree, the problem is the Christian God is not bound by space or time. Once again, you admit God would know everything in a way that is incomprehensible to us, and then turn around and say what such a being would and would not do. How could we possibly know that?
>The Christian God is just a spoilt brat who has been given a lot of power and especially one that still acts within the confines of linear time.
In regards to the first half of your sentence, what examples do you have? For the second half, where are you getting this from?
Edit: Added to a question
I’ll comment on this/add to this discussion using my own beliefs/understanding that I’ve refined over time.
God is indeed outside of space and time altogether. God is after all not even a material entity, so it wouldn’t make sense to find god within the 4D spacetime.
In that sense God lives outside of the B-theory material universe, which indeed, as you’ve correctly pointed out doesn’t differentiate between present, past, and future as they’re all different locations/slices in the 4d block universe (time isn’t even absolute, as relativity tells us).
What you have to then realize is that there’s another kind of “time” completely unrelated to material time, which is the type of time we experience subjectively. Ie a “change” of a single spiritual state with a single present (and a destroyed past and unknown future). This is the time that “god” (and all spiritual entities such as ourselves) experience. God being at the “beginning”/source of that form of existence (which is really all there is).
>The point I’m trying to make here is that since people claim that God does not have a beginning and that it is at eternity, then that must imply that God exists beyond space and time. If so, then it must be able to KNOW everything that can happen within space and time
Actually that doesn’t follow. An entity which exists beyond space and time might know nothing about what exists inside space and time (because it’s outside of it). Or he might not know everything about it because he cannot see it (ie we’re too small for him to see).
Moreover it could be that something which exists beyond space and time could not interact with ANYTHING inside space and time (so there goes Omnipotence).
Debating or quasi sudo intellectual ramblings about this religion or that God only shows us, how little we really know or may ever know. Truth is, if it’s a god that makes sense and I understand, then it’s no god! Even I as a created being recognize if I was created by something “greater” as in God, I would hope they are so omni everything that I don’t and can’t understand their ways, especially if their ways are good. I sort of look at it like parenting. As kids we don’t know what our parents know and therefore don’t always agree with their decisions for lack of understanding or wisdom or life experience. Only as parents do we really see the other side of that equation. Just thinking out loud.
Allah created time and time does not encompass him. He created human with the sole purpose of worshipping Him. Human worship does not benefit Him or add to His Kingdom, nor does defying Him decrease from His Kingdom or might. Our existence in this world will be used as evidence for or against us on Judgment Day to decide if we are worthy of heaven or worthy of hell.
I think the Christian perception of god is weak and humbles himself among his own creation and allows his creation to humiliate him and kill him on a cross. Ridiculous belief and I don’t see why anyone would worship such a weak figure, especially since the only evidence is he said she said i saw him do miracles. The trinity is just a confusing nonsense concept to keep christians to follow blindly what they dont understand.
Quran, Chapter of Mary:
88. And they say, “The Most Merciful has begotten a son.”
89. You have come up with something monstrous.
90. At which the heavens almost rupture, and the earth splits, and the mountains fall and crumble.
91. Because they attribute a son to the Most Merciful.
92. It is not fitting for the Most Merciful to have a son.
93. There is none in the heavens and the earth but will come to the Most Merciful as a servant.
94. He has enumerated them, and counted them one by one.
95. And each one of them will come to Him on the Day of Resurrection alone.
The first 2 paragraphs are superb. The third paragraph is your weakest. I would postulate that should such a God exist then Christian understanding of him is inadequate. The reliance on the Bible as the true word of God would be disproved. That would apply to the Quran and all other religious texts as well. There are corollaries as well.
Lol you essentially wrote an annoyed sounding essay about the well known philosophical problem of the incompatibility of omnipotence and omniscience. To the believer the, the mystery of God’s existence is in the same category as the mystery of the trinity. It’s existential sophistry in the end. Intellectual masturbation that feigns sophistication under the guise of religious “philosophy”.
>Given eternity, no matter how remotely unlikely it may seem, an infinite number of quantum fluctuations will generate an infinite number of universes and every possible permutation of events would play out within eternity.
*If quantum fluctuations can generate universes.
if you created time then how are you bound by its mechanic?
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I’m not convinced anything can “exist” outside of time, it renders the word “exist” meaningless.
Existing for zero seconds = not existing
>SUCH a truly boundless being, untouched by space or time, would have no emotions,
We don’t have a frame of reference to know if such a being has emotions or not.
I’d argue that being “outside space and time” is so poorly defined that it shouldn’t be used. Calling God outside space and time is usually just a cop out so that theists can claim special pleading for their deity compared to the universe itself.
>then it wouldn’t create a universe since it’d know everything already
I was with you up to this point. You seem to be assuming that God would only create a universe _in order to learn about the universe_. That’s like assuming an artist only creates art to learn what the art will look like, rather than creating art for the sake of the art itself.
However, most theists (in the west at least) assume that God creates for the good of creation, not God’s own good.
>SUCH a truly boundless being, untouched by space or time, would have no emotions, it’d have no desires, it wouldn’t act with human emotions,
Yes, absolutely. You are beginning to grasp the central concepts of classical theism.
>it wouldn’t create the universe
Again, why? Why assume that the only reason to do something is to gain something for yourself?