Saturday, April 1, 2023
HomeDebate ReligionThe argument from infinity.

The argument from infinity.

I have made this argument in another subreddit and wanted to see how it would do here. I would like to propose an argument in favour of Gods existence. Its called the argument from infinity. Here it is.

P1: The universe is infinite

P2: Infinite things cannot arise from finite causes

P3: The universe cannot have a finite cause

P4: what ever caused the universe had to be infinite

P5: God is infinite

Conclusion: God \*is a more likely candidate to have\* created the universe \*as well as non-theistic infinite causes such as………………………………………………..\*

Because if there is no other potential infinite cause then by process of elimination God is the only answer left.


Edit: I should probably clarify that this argument is meant to strengthen the likelihood of Gods existence not prove him entirely. It narrows it down with God being one of the few remaining possibilities. I would really like to know of non-theistic potential infinite causes so I can learn and stuff

A lot of comments Are saying some variation of A is B, C is B, Therefore A is C is bad logic. Again A is not necessarily C, but we are narrowing down the possibilities. I am putting this argument here to see if there are other potential non-theistic infinite causes because if there are none, then that means that we have narrowed it down to one single possibility and it proves God. But I am sure there are more I’m just not hearing them.

View Reddit by Many_Marsupial7968View Source

Mary Johnson
Mary Johnson
I have been reading and writing for over 20 years. My passion is reading and I would like to someday write a novel. I enjoy exercise and shopping.


  1. Here we go again.

    >P1: The universe is infinite

    First off, we don’t know that. Second, when cosmologists talk about infinite, they might not be talking about what you think they mean. The universe can both be finite *and* infinite. See the video I linked below.


    >P2: Infinite things cannot arise from finite causes

    Demonstrably false. If an electron falls back to a lower energy “orbit”, it emits a photon. This photon could theoretically travel through spacetime infinitely. The [Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation]( has been traveling for about 13.67 billion years, and there is no reason to assume those photons will stop doing so.


    >P3: The universe cannot have a finite cause

    Premise based on P2, which has just been demonstrated to be false.

    If it works for a photon, then by extrapolation there is no reason to assume this can’t work for the universe.


    >P4: what ever caused the universe had to be infinite

    Premise based on P3, which was based on P2, which has just been demonstrated to be false.


    >P5: God is infinite

    There’s no way you can *know* that. You can only *assume*.


    >Conclusion: God *is a more likely candidate to have* created the universe *as well as non-theistic infinite causes such as………………………………………………..*

    This is a false dichotomy where you only give “infinite gods did it” or “natural infinite causes” as choices, while your premises of “infinite” are unproven or even disproven.

    [Cosmologists have proposed natural infinite models of the universe that don’t require any supernatural shenanigans]( Occam’s razor dictates you must first disprove all these models before you add a supernatural level of complexity to the explanation.

    I’ll give you one possible naturalistic hypothesis: our universe is the result of an alien lab experiment in another universe. This doesn’t require the alien scientist to be omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent, or any other “infinite property”.

  2. >P1: The universe is infinite

    >P2: Infinite things cannot arise from finite causes

    So an infinite thing result from the universe, right?

    If that’s the case, how do you know an unthinking universe-like-thing isn’t the source?

  3. I’m a finite being but can write an infinite loop (usually by accident, I admit) in my computer code. Therefore, P2 is false, infinite things can be created by finite things.

  4. >P1: The universe is infinite

    This doesn’t seem a settled issue at all amongst people who actually study it.

    >P2: Infinite things cannot arise from finite causes

    ‘We don’t know’ seems the only answer here.

    >P3: The universe cannot have a finite cause

    Why not? If I light a candle the flame that did it is dead before the candle is. For all we know the energy used in causing the universe to become what we know it as, or pre-big bang was enough to consume whatever started it.

    >P4: what ever caused the universe had to be infinite

    This just seems a re-stated P3

    >P5: God is infinite

    I have literally no idea where this ‘god’ suddenly comes into the argument, nor what you mean by it, nor how you equate ‘god is claimed to be infinite’ with ‘god is infinite’.

    >Conclusion: God *is a more likely candidate to have* created the universe *as well as non-theistic infinite causes such as………………………………………………..*

    You have said NOTHING about this candidate beyond one unsupported assertion.

    >Because if there is no other potential infinite cause then by process of elimination God is the only answer left.

    Allow me to suggest one answer: ‘We don’t know’.

  5. I don’t see how you can justify any of these premises, except P5, which is just a definition.

    But also the syllogism is not valid as nothing in it says the only infinite thing which could cause the universe would be this particular god.

  6. Nestled in your argument is the assumption that the universe was created. If God is allowed to “just be,” than so is the universe.

    So in other words, you would need to first show the universe had a cause before you can get around to arguing that the cause was a God.

  7. Notice where your logical argument leaps the tracks, using this similar example to your line of reasoning:

    * This dog is a mammal.
    * Mammals can’t be born to non-mammalian beings.
    * This dog cannot have a non-mammalian parent.
    * Whatever conceived this dog had to be a mammal.
    * Socrates is a mammal.
    * Conclusion: Socrates gave birth to this dog.

  8. >P1: The universe is infinite

    Probably, it’s literally impossible to know for sure due to the cosmic horizon, but sure.

    >P2: Infinite things cannot arise from finite causes

    No, electrons are going to exist forever and ever and ever and ever, but they had a start.

    >P3: The universe cannot have a finite cause

    Would follow from P1 and P2, but P2 is false.

    >P4: what ever caused the universe had to be infinite

    That is a bit of jumping the gun, it is entirely possible that the universe, as a whole, simply has no cause at all. Not having a finite cause does not imply an infinite cause, that’s a false dichotomy.

    >P5: God is infinite

    Conclusion: God created the universe.

    That does not follow. If the ground is wet, and rain can make the ground wet, it does not mean rain did make the ground wet, a watergun or sprinklers could’ve just as easily done it.

  9. Your argument is equivalent to:

    1. The ground is wet.
    2. Rain can make the ground wet.
    3. So the ground is wet due to rain.

    While actually rain is not the only thing that can make things wet and in our example the ground is wet bc we washed our car on it.

    So you cannot conclude that God created the universe from that. There are plenty of things that can be infinite.

  10. The first problem is the argument isn’t valid, which is a technical term to mean the conclusion doesn’t logically follow from the premises. We see this problem at a few points.

    P3 doesn’t follow from the previous premises and commits the modal fallacy. This is because in P2 you’ve left the scope of the modal operator, cannot, as ambiguous. It could either apply to the whole statement, i.e. have a wide scope, or just the latter part of the statement, i.e. a narrow scope. P3 only follows if P2 is a narrow scope but P2 only makes sense on a wide scope.

    P4 doesn’t follow as you are missing an unstated premise. You’d need the premise “either a cause is finite or infinite”.

    Conclusion doesn’t follow. Even if we every premise that leaves open the possibility that some other infinite thing caused the universe.

    Another issue is the ambiguity of the term infinite. Are you using it in a quantitative sense or qualitative? P1 makes more sense on a quantitative sense by saying the size of the university is infinite. However, P5 makes more sense as a qualitative sense since God doesn’t have a physical form. There looks to be some equivocation on the term infinite since the meaning is ambiguous.

    Next just listing a bunch of premises and conclusion isn’t a good argument. Even if you fixed the previous 2 issues to formulate a logically valid argument you still need to provide justification for each premise to show the argument is sound.

    Finally this isn’t an argument for God’s existence. God’s existence is assumed in P5. Really this is an argument that God created the universe as that is the final conclusion.

  11. God is infinite…………………………………………………………..

    That’s all it really comes down to with so called “logical” arguments for God. Some number of weird statements, reasonable or not, and then “God is <insert last thing here>”

    Two problems with that last part that are unavoidable:

    – No one knows what God is, if there is God

    – Even if the last thing is true, that doesn’t actually put God in the position that is being argued

    For example:
    – Everyone has a father
    – I have a father
    – God is a father
    – My father is God

    No, no he is not

  12. P1 research is underway to determine whether or not the universe is infinite
    P2 infinite things can definitely result from finite causes. Example the gravity a black hole is infinite. It was caused by the collapse of star in a supernova.
    P3 such a statement requires substantiation.
    P4 only follows if P1-3 have been proven. They haven’t so far.

  13. P1. We don’t know that the universe is infinite

    P2. We don’t know that for sure. Our caveman brains perceive things as cause and effect but that doesn’t mean it’s true.

    P3. Well it *could* have a finite cause. We just don’t know.

    P4. Not necessarily.

    P5. How do you know? Have you met him?

  14. Uhh.. What do you mean by the universe being ‘infinite’? If the universe is infinitely old, then it doesn’t have to ‘arise’ from anything, for it has always existed. But maybe you mean the universe is infinitely large (e.g., it is spatially, but not temporally, infinite). But, first, it has not been established that the universe is infinite. It is perfectly possible that it is geometrically closed (viz., space curves on itself), and that would imply it is spatially finite. Some may point to measurements that allegedly prove it is flat. However, inflation can make the universe appear flat, just like Earth seems flat from our perspective, due to its enormous scale.

    But suppose that the universe is infinitely large, for the sake of argument. Maybe your argument is that, because the cause had to be infinitely powerful (in order to create an infinitely large object), it must be omnipotent, which confirms classical theism. However, omnipotence is not classically defined as ‘infinite power’. Rather, it is defined as the ability to do whatever is logically possible. One can have infinite powers, but not necessarily the power to do everything possible. To see this, suppose I have a collection with an infinite number of coins. Does that mean I have all coins in the world? Not necessarily. There may be more coins that exist outside of my set of coins (‘infinite’ is not identical to ‘all’). Likewise, I may have infinite power, but not all powers. Indeed, for all we know, the cause may have the infinite power to actualize only one thing, namely, an infinitely large spacetime. That’s a very limited cause, indeed.

  15. P1: Infinite in what respect? Volume? Age? Modern scientific understanding suggests that the universe is not infinite in either of these (related) characteristics.

  16. So the argument is a special plead for god?

    Here’s what I mean.

    The universe is infinite (P1) and therefore must have an infinite cause (P2, 3 & 4). God is infinite (P5) and so God created the universe (C).

    Your argument can only stop here by disregarding the basis for your conclusion formed by P1-4. By stating God is infinite (P5) you must maintain gods need for an infinite cause as well (P2-4).

    By stopping at god, you’ve committed a special pleading fallacy *for* god because you don’t require an infinite cause for god, but you do for the universe.

  17. > P1: The universe is infinite

    Please cite source. AFAIK infinite is a concept that cannot manifest in reality due to the limitations of physical dimension.

    > P2: Infinite things cannot arise from finite causes

    Why not? This doesn’t seem necessarily true.

    > P3: The universe cannot have a finite cause

    Why not? If I drop a rock into an infinitely large pond, the ripple would continue in every direction. Finite rock; infinite ripple.

    > P4: what ever caused the universe had to be infinite

    Disagree. See above.

    > P5: God is infinite

    God is not mentioned prior to this.

    > Conclusion: God created the universe.

    Pretty much every step is baseless.

  18. P1: The universe is not infinite. We’ve calculated its size before, and the size of the entire visible universe we can see only covers as much of the full universe as approximately about the same as Pepsi Can would cover on Pluto. It’s massive beyond what our brains can understand or comprehend, and we have no chance of ever seeing (let alone going to) it all, but it’s not infinite. We’re just incredibly small.

    P2: Correct. That’s one of the reasons the universe is not seen as infinite.

    P3: Incorrect. The universe is finite and thereby has a finite cause.

    P4: Incorrect. We had an incredible large amount of matter in a hyper-dense environnent that led to a quantum expansion of space and time which can easily both be seen in our universe, the vision of the past light that reaches us, and can completely explain the universe and its current size.

    P5: Even ignoring all the incorrect assumptions made here, and giving you the infinity of the universe for the sake of argument, the lack of evidence for one thing is not proof of another. It’s a burden of proof fallacy, because it does not prove that God is infinite or that there is a God that exists in the first place, let alone a God involved in that process.

  19. I don’t see how this increases the likelihood of god as a cause. Even if the premises were true which you’ve not provided any support at all for… you would’ve demonstrated that god is one possible cause… but one of a few? How do you get that? There could be an infinite number of possible infinite things…. how can we know there’s only a few?

  20. The premises do not guarantee the conclusion. What you need to show isn’t that God is infinite, but that infinite is God.

    As it stands the universe could be caused by ANY infinite cause including itself.

  21. Look into cosmology, you may find it interesting that our universe has causality but you’ll only find that here. Outside of causality you can expect infinite numbers of events that never occurred here in our universe which means there may be beings similar to gods who have existed in other universes but a creator for reality was never necessary to explain it.

  22. > P1: The universe is infinite

    I’m not convinced this is true. But for the sake of argument I will allow it.

    > P2: Infinite things cannot arise from finite causes

    Besides the universe, what infinite things do we know of? What are their causes? Unless we have at least one (preferable many) infinite things and we know their cases, we cannot make this claim.

    > P3: The universe cannot have a finite cause.

    See above.

    > P4: whatever cause the universe had to be infinite

    Another issue I have is the assumption of causation. What reason do we have to think the universe had any cause? Do all infinite things have a cause?

    > P5: God is infinite

    What god? Also this is the same at P1. Therefore all following premises would apply to the universe and God. God would also have to arrive from an infinite cause.

    > Conclusion: God created the universe

    This does not follow from the premises. Namely “created”. We have no reason to think from the premises that God can “create” anything.

    Every single premise has it’s own issue.

  23. >P1: The universe is infinite

    A assumption based on?

    >P2: Infinite things cannot arise from finite causes

    Between 0 and 1 there are a infinite number of fractions

    >P3: The universe cannot have a finite cause

    Based on nothing, and even if it could not…so what?

    >P4: what ever caused the universe had to be infinite

    Again, you are not substantiating this with anything, and even if you are right…so what?

    >P5: God is infinite

    So the thing you are imagining has the exact properties that fit your narative/arguments….shocking

  24. P1: God is infinite.

    P2: Infinite things cannot arise from finite causes.

    P3: God cannot have a finite cause.

    P4: Whatever caused God had to be infinite.

    P5: The universe is infinite.

    C: The universe created God.

  25. Simply taking you argument and swapping ‘the universe’ for ‘god’ and vice versa yields the following.

    P1: God is infinite

    P2: Infinite things cannot arise from finite causes

    P3: God cannot have a finite cause

    P4: what ever caused God had to be infinite

    P5: The universe is infinite

    Conclusion: The universe created God.

    ​Using the same illogical argument as posted, yields the inverse of your conclusion.

  26. For P1. Where’s the proof or evidence that the universe is infinite? The universe is finite.
    For P2. Where’s the proof or evidence that the universe arose? Does arose mean it was created from nothing?
    P5. Where’s the proof or evidence that there’s an infinite thing?

    Also, what’s the infinite thing that caused God?

  27. 1. Janet the human is pregnant.
    2. Only human males can get Janet pregnant.
    3. Your dad is a human male.

    Conclusion: your dad got Janet pregnant.

    See the skip in reasoning?

    Also: what’s demonstrated is things in space/time/matter/energy can affect, and be affected by, other things in space/time/matter/energy, under the right conditions. What has not been demonstrated is that something in s/t/m/e can be affected by something not in s/t/m/e. Can you demonstrate that it’s even actually possible?

    Edit to add:
    Humans invented math.
    Math has an infinite amount of numbers.
    Humans are finite.

    Conclusion: something infinite can come from something finite.

  28. Since others are tackling the soundness and validity, I’ll look at your edit.

    > strengthen the likelihood of Gods existence

    How in the world do you think it does this? Logically speaking. What does an additional argument do to the likelihood of anything?

  29. This seems like just a slightly different spin on the Kalam cosmological argument. It fails for the same reason Kalam does. You can’t make a conclusion based on unfounded premises. The only way to make your argument at least logically consistent is to put the word “if” at the beginning of each premise. Being logically consistent however is not the same as being true.

  30. Even assuming all the premises, this is not a sound argument. Analogously:

    >P1: whoever sent me a spam email this morning must speak English
    >P2: Dwayne “the Rock” Johnson speaks English
    >Conclusion: Dwayne “The Rock” Johnson sent me a spam email this morning.

    A is a B, C is a B, ergo A is C is a clearly fallacious argument. Even if we concede that the cause of the universe must be infinite and that God is infinite, it doesn’t therefore follow that the cause of the universe must be God.

Comments are closed.

Most Popular